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September 26, 2008

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Clofresh (Last of the Real OG's)

Archie Fucque....n*gga what the hell are you smoking??? You need to pass that sh*t, cause I wanna be as high as you. Everybody knows Kanye does not have a classic albumn as of "yet". College drop out fell short of a classic cause of just that. That albumn did't have a major movement effect on the public. He had a few #1 singles, and the overall albumn was above average, but no classic there. Where the hell are you from??? If you are from Afghanistan, then that explains it. The streets and the hoods across America were not bumping "College Dropout" like they were bumpin "The Chronic, "Doggystyle", "Illmatic" "Hard Knock Life", "Blueprint". Those are certified classics that don't have to be argued about. If you have to argue that an albumn is a classic, then sorry dawg, it's not. Everybody knows that, plain and simple. The streets dictate what's gonna be a classic or not.

RaysOfTheSunKing

Clo-Fresh Said It Best!!!!!
I Agree 100%!
You Should Of Added To The List
Of Classic Albums, "Life After Death"

KazeNino

College Drop Out < In My Lifetime
Late Registration < Reasonable Doubt
Graduation < Hard Knock Life

Kanye can do whatever he does but dont you ever in your life say any of his albums matches up to what J did.You corny for even saying something like that its not a debate its a no brainer. You get stuck on an island with all that gold digger, drunk and hot girls, work out plan garbage. while im a be bumpin Money,Cash,Hoes, Where I'm From, D'evils, Hard Knock Life, Dead Presidents, Can I live.....Jay-Z is top 5 what is Kanye? even comparing jus those albums you proved your opinion is worthless.

Clofresh (Last of the Real OG's)

@ RaysOfTheSunKing.....Dawg, I left out quite of a few classics. But I was just trying to make a point. But ya boy Fucque is tripping..Had to check dat nigga. But I'll name all of the 90's "Certified", there are no questions, classics. And they are ass followed:

1. The Chronic
2. Doggystyle
3. Illmatic
4. Ready to Die
5. All Eyez on Me
6. Makaveli
7. Life After Death
8. Hard Knock Life
9. 400 Degreez
10. Blueprint.

I wish somebody would tell me i'm wrong.

Clofresh (Last of the Real OG's)

@ RaysOfTheSunKing.....Dawg, I left out quite of a few classics. But I was just trying to make a point. But ya boy Fucque is tripping..Had to check dat nigga. But I'll name all of the 90's "Certified", there are no questions, classics. And they are ass followed:

1. The Chronic
2. Doggystyle
3. Illmatic
4. Ready to Die
5. All Eyez on Me
6. Makaveli
7. Life After Death
8. Hard Knock Life
9. 400 Degreez
10. Blueprint.

I wish somebody would tell me i'm wrong.

Clofresh (Last of the Real OG's)

@ RaysOfTheSunKing.....Dawg, I left out quite of a few classics. But I was just trying to make a point. But ya boy Fucque is tripping..Had to check dat nigga. But I'll name all of the 90's "Certified", there are no questions, classics. And they are ass followed:

1. The Chronic
2. Doggystyle
3. Illmatic
4. Ready to Die
5. All Eyez on Me
6. Makaveli
7. Life After Death
8. Hard Knock Life
9. 400 Degreez
10. Blueprint.

I wish somebody would tell me i'm wrong.

Clofresh (Last of the Real OG's)

@ RaysOfTheSunKing.....Dawg, I left out quite of a few classics. But I was just trying to make a point. But ya boy Fucque is tripping..Had to check dat nigga. But I'll name all of the 90's "Certified", there are no questions, classics. And they are ass followed:

1. The Chronic
2. Doggystyle
3. Illmatic
4. Ready to Die
5. All Eyez on Me
6. Makaveli
7. Life After Death
8. Hard Knock Life
9. 400 Degreez
10. Blueprint.

I wish somebody would tell me i'm wrong.

thatdude

Clo-Fresh

Archie here! You have a strong argument, however I must disagree with you on a few points. Let say, I'm in no way understating Jay's legacy. He's the best that ever did it. But I really feel like he's not giving Ye his just due. Kanye West in now way has been a product of the microwave effect. Dude, put his time in the old fashion way. He was actually laughed at when he told people he wanted to rap. So nothing was given to him, he earned it all. Also, we will agree to disagree on College Dropout, but you can not deny that his first album had a bigger cultural impact than Jay's first. An please don't tell me "the streets, this and the streets that". Having an album that's street approved is only one factor that goes into the definition of classic, it's not the end all, be all of determination. I know your East Coast biased will have you believe Reasonable Doubt was a classic throughout the entire culture, but Jay-Z was not even known to a majority of hip-hop fans until Hardknock Life. College Dropout played in the streets, college dorms, and burbs of the culture. It paved a way for the entire hipster genre to exist. There is no Lupe, Cool Kids, or any of that stuff without Kanye West. It took Jay his third try to impact the entire culture. And he did that when the competition was considerably weakened. No Pac. No Big. And a waning Nas. One last thing, Kanye played a key role in Jay's other classic album that impacted the "entire culture". Ok enough for now. (Osama and these cats f*cking up my cave.) I look forward to your response.

Phiyuk_You

Archie, You are bugging out. What cultural effect has college drop out had. None. Don't get me wrong it had some hot joints on there. The hottest being Two words. In no way whatsoever has Kanye's first album overshined Jays first. Lets not forget that Jay's first album came when Hip Hop was not at the commercial level it is now and it was when there was more substance to hip hop. Kanye came around when rap was at its peak in commercialism. Rappers were going gold with no problem at that time. Most rappers out now were inspired by Jay to the point that they rapped like him. Kanye does inspire, but how many people now rap like him. None. Now how many people rapped like jay after his first album. Your favorite rapper raps like Jay. MY DNA IN YA MUSIC, MOTHERF*CKER YOU STUPID. lol. Jay did say that Kanye was on his way to being on every list. That is the highest compliment a teacher can give a student. I did not see any hate in that.

ToGeedUp4U

Ok Archie so you saying Jay wasnt known until his 3rd album? You crazy! He had B.I.G. on reasonable doubt, so anybody who liked B.I.G. knew Jay. Cmon U saying Jay impacted the culture when the competition was weakened, so u telling me Kanye had stronger comp? Real talk Kanye couldnt make it in the 90s. Back when lyrics mattered. No real G's is bumping Kanye like that! The streets matter. If you cant move the streets then you album definately aint classic,cuse a classic moves everybody.

Zmoney

This is getting interesting. Learned allot from these comments.

juelz718

First, I love this hiphop shit..bcuz the competition is vicious. Now I can't front late registration and graduation was better than in my lifetime and hard knock life when they came out but no f**king way college dropout is better than reasonable doubt no way..second, I can't front ye gets better album after album but ye is like pac in he make music 4 everybody bc stronger was not made 4 Brooklyn it was made for Beverly hills but bet can't tell me nothing was for the hood. Dudes like kanye and Pac was boys who became men.. Like they knew they were gonna grow up and do music hov and big was dudes who was boys who became hustlas and was like shit instead if selling crack 2 da block umma sell music 2 da world...

juelz718

First, I love this hiphop shit..bcuz the competition is vicious. Now I can't front late registration and graduation was better than in my lifetime and hard knock life when they came out but no f**king way college dropout is better than reasonable doubt no way..second, I can't front ye gets better album after album but ye is like pac in he make music 4 everybody bc stronger was not made 4 Brooklyn it was made for Beverly hills but bet can't tell me nothing was for the hood. Dudes like kanye and Pac was boys who became men.. Like they knew they were gonna grow up and do music hov and big was dudes who was boys who became hustlas and was like shit instead of selling crack 2 da block umma sell music 2 da world...

KazeNino

ok Jay did do it after the legends were gone. but kanye did it when there was absolutely nobody. and the content is better forget if college white boys bump it. Compare any kanye album song for song with any of jays albums and kanye wont win. Then... look... Then.... compare kanyes top lets say 15 to not jays top 15 but to any jay albums and jay still wins. You cant compare a dude that has some content to a dude like jay. the styles are different. and yeah jay couldnt shine but how could anybody wit pac n big thea...

KazeNino

yeah do the math reasonable doubt platinum its first 12 months out, in my lifetime double platinum its first 12 months out.

PAPERCUTS

Dog, everything about your commentary in regards to Jay was way off base. First off, the man just answered a question. And being honest. The fact that you're ODing on the drama off that is kind of weak. Who's to say that interview wasn't done before the cover photo? Or that he knows where Jeter or Fey are from? I also think you're GROSSLY underestimating Jay's effect on "the entire culture" and GROSSLY overestimating Kanye's and I don't know what Kanye's "struggle", which you just heartwrenchingly laid out, has to do with any of that. And I don't view Kanye as being some enormous trendsetter

The "streets" didn't certify Reasonable Doubt a classic. Hip Hop did. Hip Hop in the streets, in the dorms etc. College Dropout ain't that. Opening the door for "hipster" rap is hardly a benchmark. Coming in and smashing the game as an MC and a label owner with yoru crew I think is far more impressive. If by bigger impact you mean on a mainstream level, yes, Kanye did more damage on his first album (which was on who's label again? And your original statement was in regards to the first 3 albums). But guess what? Mainstream don't decide the classics.

THEBATTERY

yall niggas is blind, Kanye's first 3 albums have gone platinum and the last aint even have an extremely popular song dat you kept hearin on the radio like Wayne or T.I. have when they come out with songs, so how does Kanye do it? HE MAKES GOOD MUSIC! how gone say"when lyrics mattered" that speaks on real subjects, all the things he's went through from "through the wire" to "cant tell me nothin". If you cant see how good his lyrics are yall are dumb. and honestly at this point his music is more diverse than Jigga. and plus this nigga did have a role in Jay's rise of popularity, in the background. da nigga produced "H to the izzo", "Lucifer", "Encore, and probably more(I didnt listen to a whole Jigga album until American Gangsta. You know you lyin if you say that Reasonable Doubt had more of a movement than COLLEGE DROPOUT, I bet if you do a survey on whose heard of each, more would say COLLEGE DROPOUT and I bet I enjoy more than I would Reasonable Doubt, cus I like Jigga but he doesn't show enough emotion in his songs, and that's what makes a song better sometimes, go listen to Late Registration, its better than Jay-z's last two albums put together even tho I liked em.

cashpacasso

alright let's put this into perspective. Jay said it himself "I dropped reasonable doubt and y'all all lamed out/ didn't really appreciate it until the second one came out"...he admitted that reasonable doubt didn't have an impact on hip hop...when Nas dropped Illmatic it changed the way niggaz was rapping and made the game as a whole step they shit up....Fat Joe was on some fast rap Flow Joe shit and Jay Z was too...so that's impact....if your going to judge a classic by the streets then y'all leaving out alot of street classic albums

1. CNN-War Report
2. Nas- It Was Written
3. Nore- N.O.R.E
4. Mobb Deep- The Imfamous
5. The Lox- We Are The Streets
6. Heltah Skeltah- Nocturnal
7. AZ- Peices Of A Man

Just to name a few....
These are classic street albums that freeze time when you hear them now and bring back memories. So if your going to classify an album classic it's not just about sales or impact it's about opinion also. Now Reasonable Doubt is definitely a classic in my books and so is College Dropout...I'd pick RD over CD but both are classics...but you have to understand that Kanye "made" his classic...Jay Z had alot of help with Reasonable Doubt...some of the songs and concepts on that album actually came from Camp Lo..."Feelin It" was a Camp Lo song that Jay picked up because they worked with the same producer. But Ye produced his album...And Archie did have a valid point when he said what he said about Big and Pac...Jay couldn't shine with them alive..he was really looked at as Bigs man...which is why Pac was on his ass without him ever saying a word about Pac...if your in away confused about Kanyes impact on Hip Hop just check his credits he produces classic albums. And then check niggaz dress codes nowadays which before Ye came out was pretty much the same (fitted caps, loose jeans, boots or air forces, jordans, jerseys, white tees, etc.) you can't deny Kanyes impact on hip hop since he's entered the game....He you forgot the Jay's last bonafied classic album (Blueprint) was mostly crafted by yours truly Mr. West? The nigga changed the whole Roca Fella sound when he came in!!!! So to everybody screaming that street shit cut it out because I'm a producer from "the streets" and the reason I started making beats was Ye. He's a Genious point blank period and they are often misunderstood or ridiculed when they're here. That's just how shit is.
Chuuch
www.myspace.com/hand2handproductions

Pacasso

thirdkind


OK, let's start with the theory that Jay-Z was "well known" after Reasonable Doubt.

#1: The album peaked at #23 on the charts, and didn't go platinum until 2002. I realize that rap was not in the era of shipping 1 mil first week and shit like that, but damn, 6 years? By that time we we're already past his 2nd "classic" album. And no one was using Napster when it came out in '96 (I know, I was on that mp3 shit early, but P2P file sharing was barely even thought about in those days).

#2: There was not 1 top-40 single on the whole album (in the US, anyway). For people to know him like that, he sure wasn't getting no bump on the radio.

#3: Since we're on the topic of singles, let's go down the list. "Can't Knock the Hustle" got up to #73, and "Ain't No Nigga" got up to #50 (and that's the song most people would know from the album, along with Dead Presidents). I don't expect "Brooklyn's Finest" to chart (it was strictly an album cut), but there's a problem when a lot of folks know of the song, but probably couldn't tell you the actual name of it, or know it only as "the joint with Biggie on it." By contrast, most people can call out the name of "Notorious Thugs," or even "Thug Luv" (to name 2 other famous colabos).

#4: I believe that Reasonable Doubt is what I would call a "hindsight classic." Meaning, it was somewhat hot when it came out, and as Jigga's legend, skills, rep, and catalog grew, it came to be recognized as a classic. This is somewhat subject to opinion (and region, to an extent; I'm sure there are more NY heads who thought it was a classic straight out the gate than, say, the Bay or ATL). I just don't remember Jay-Z getting that same "instant classic" love and respect that Nas got off of "Illmatic." (And yes, I realize that his sales did not reflect that. The difference is, people were surprised when it happened to Nas, while no one batted an eye when it happened to Jay-Z.) I think "College Dropout" will end up being a "hindsight classic" as well very soon (for those who don't already consider it such).


And as for the theory that Kanye didn't move the streets, I don't know where y'all are from, but I saw a whole lot of niggas on the east coast bumpin' Kanye and wearing polos with popped collars IMMEDIATELY after that 1st album dropped, including niggas usually thought of as "thuggish" or hard (I mainly frequented Florida, ATL, and the DMV [DC/MD/VA]). And if I remember correctly, Kanye beats and/or features were HIGH in demand after that shit came out. Not to mention he is probably the biggest (but not only) factor behind the resurgence of Common, the emergence of John Legend, and the medium-relevance of Talib Kweli. Not to mention the work he continued to put in at the Roc. I think he's got the impact thing tucked safely in his back pocket.


And anyway, since when did having an impact or classic album become contingent on "moving the streets." That's what's wrong with rap sometimes, some people put way too much emphasis on how "street" you are and ignore whether or not you're just a good MC, period. Last I checked, there was nothing street about Plies' singles (I'm not counting "I'm So Hood," which is a Khalid single), but no one questions it. (I hear his album cuts are street-oriented, but who's buying the album based on album cuts you never heard before?)

Basically, give Kanye his due. The dude goes toe-to-toe with anyone out today, whether it's lyrically, consistency, Soundscan, relevance, or any other way you choose to measure it. And this is coming from a man who still believes that Jay-Z is, as the blogger put it, "the best that ever did it."

JoeyZ

College Dropout is classic with a capital C. That album is BRILLIANT. A classic is not defined by whether it was being bumped in the streets when it came out, people bump so much garbage. This isn't about what the masses want, or what they recognize and when they recognize it, but about great music.

PAPERCUTS

No one is not giving Kanye his due. You guys are maybe getting wound up for no reason. Jay made a statement. Someone is blowing that out of proportion. It ain't that deep. And dudes popping collars or beats being in demand or his "struggle" or working with Kweli and Common or whatever. None of that really has anything to do with the topic at hand. Kanye is obviously great. Having a classic or not doesn't diminish his greatness. And Jay even acknowledges his greatness. So why are y'all trippin'?

You guys keep throwing chart numbers "platinum" this around. You don't get it. None of that matters. Did A Tribe Called Quest ever hit the chart? You know how long it took 3 Feet High And Rising to go platinum? Does any of that matter when we're talking about CLASSIC material.

It ain't Hammertime. Get it?

teach_one

Yall cats on here really debating J's comments. I'll say this...Jay Z is on his own dick too much to acknowledge greatness from anybody!

The nigga aint event believe in Ye as an MC..Ye had to pay for "thru the wire" video himself..Jay Z to me is shallow. How you gonna say "i aint think dude was gonna sell cuz he aint come from the hustling life" ye is a great artist that show you can be dope and not sell dope...personally I do not respect Sean Carter the man because he sold dope to blacks to get where he is and aint doin nothing to rebuild lives he destroyed...payin for Sean Bells kids to go to school is self-serving and the least he could do...at least Ye got an educational foundation...THATS HIP HOP!

Now to this day Jay Z act more "not from the streets that any nigga in rap...he's not even black to me he's just rich ( with new money...huge difference)

Phiyuk_You

Ok. THEBATTERY Said
"yall niggas is blind, Kanye's first 3 albums have gone platinum and the last aint even have an extremely popular song dat you kept hearin on the radio like Wayne or T.I. have when they come out with songs".

You are (everybody together say) "WRONG". You tryin to tell me that "stronger" and "can't tell me nothing" didn't get as much radio play as lil wayne and jeezy. Wow, you ridin for Kanye to the point you lyin. "Stronger" got as much radio play as "loli pop" and way more radio play than any jeezy song. "Stronger" was played on white and black radio stations and HUGE in Europe so try to bring a valid point. Nobody is saying Kanye is trash. All we're saying is he did not cause a huge impact like Jay. Right now Kanye is one of my top rappers out there along with 3000 and I think that now in 2008 he is more creative lyrically than Jay, but to say his career is as strong or better than Jay's is a fanboy statement.

archie3000

Archie here folks! Let’s all take a deep breath here. Let me layout a few things.

1. I’m not overreacting to the comments Jay-Z made. I absolutely understand that Jay and Kanye are not mortal enemies. I know Jay doesn’t hate Kanye more than the Nazis. I know Jay didn’t say it to sh*t on everything Kanye has done. He made a comment and I saw something in the comment that got me to thinking about an interesting discussion. Reasonable Doubt Vs. College Dropout and the cultural impact both albums had upon their release. This is hip-hop and this is what we do. This is not some angry journalist looking to spark beef between two of the game’s best. I’m a vegan, I hate beef.
2. Again, Jay-Z is the best that ever did it. Questioning the impact of his first album does not mean I don’t realize the obvious.
3. When comparing these two albums I am asking you all to compare the album’s impact upon its release. Let’s say we just use the first year of its release, I’m making the argument that College Dropout had more impact within its first year of release. I know that over time the classic that Reasonable Doubt is would crush College Dropout on the impact it had on the culture. It’s because of Reasonable Doubt that every wanna-be hustler became a rapper. Reasonable Doubt is the blueprint for almost every hustler rapper today. What I’m also saying is that this did not happen overnight. It took time. Meanwhile, College Dropout almost immediately influenced a new generation of style and music in its first year.
4. Finally, I know its tough to compare eras in hip-hop. There is so much that had changed in hip-hop between 1996 and 2004. So unless you truly experienced both eras you can’t really understand this debate. And some of us might be guilty of experiencing revisionist history. Everything seems rosier twelve years later and for others four years later.

Southern Queen Dee

@ teach_one

If you're going to isht talk about a man, know what you're talking about first! Jay has "The Carter Foundation" where he and his mother give away HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars each year for kids to get educations since they can't afford it. He still goes back to his hood and talks to the kids who are on the block to tell them "I've been here and trust me there's a better way". He's given money back to the entire state of NY, but mostly Brooklyn. That man has paid well enough dues, but he continues to give things away/help the less fortunate (and not just in NY). You may not like him, but don't lie on him or down talk him when he's done and continues to do what you claim he hasn't.

On to Archie. I get what you're saying, but what you have to realize is that Jay and Kanye came into the game at two completely different eras of hip hop. When Jay came out, his album might not have sold like Kanye's, but it's impact was felt and in a major way. Kanye came into the game when hip hop was at it's peak, but people wanted to hear something new/different. Kanye just came in the game at the right time. Do I think any of his albums are classic? Hell no. Do I think he'll have one? Hell yeah! Do you think if he came into the game in '96 he'd be as hot/relevant as Jay is right now? Because I certainly don't. No one would've been checking for his type of hip hop back then, so he would be a distant memory. And yes, Kanye impacted the culture, but so has Jay. When Jay matured, hip hop did it with him. It was no longer about throwbacks, chromed out cars, and overly blinged out jewelry. It was about subtlty, luxury cars without chrome/rims, and button downs. Jay already made niggas clean up and get on their grown man isht, Kanye just made them "fashionable" with it. They both have their impacts. We don't have to tear down one and his accomplishments to build up the other and his accomplishments. When it's all said and done, they've both proven to be hip hop royalty that'll be remembered for years to come.

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